Jannes and Jambres; the magic practicing priest of egypt

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Jannes and Jambres; the magic practicing priest of egypt

Postby Kingsolomon » Sun May 10, 2009 10:04 am

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Everyone has read the bible. In Exodus there speaks of Pharoahs magic practicing priest, called Jannes and Jambres. I tried to find research about these magick practicing priest, but there is very little information. has anyone done research about these priest or have done a working to obtain knowledge about these priest and how they obtained their magick. All I could find is that the Demon who lives beneath the Nile River Gave power to mimic the plagues of Moses. Like when moses turned his staff into snakes, And Jannes and Jambres also performed that same magick. I might be able to find this demon and have him to give me knowledge about the priest and thier magick I believe the demon is associated with Astorath.

According to Wikipedia. this is all i could find

According to a Jewish tradition, these were the Egyptian magicians who strove with Moses (Ex 7:11 ff). Their names appear in II Timothy 3:8, as prototypes of those who "resist the truth". Ancient sources (including Origen) suggest that there existed an apocryphal Book of Jannes and Jambres, now lost. Jannes and Jambres, or sometimes Johanai and Mamre, or Iannes and Mambres, are names given to the magicians who contended with Moses and Aaron and were discomfited by the Hebrew leaders in the Hebrew Bible book of Exodus. These names were not given in the book of Exodus itself, but they appear in 2 Timothy 3:8 in the New Testament. Origen says that there was an apocryphal book called The Book of Jannes and Jambres, containing details of their exploits, and that St Paul's epistle was quoting from it. This book has not been rediscovered.

They also appear in Pliny the Elder's Natural History, together with Moses, as famous magicians of antiquity; Pliny's citation is also referred to in Apuleius. Numerius, a Pythagorean philosopher, calls them sacred Egyptian scribes.

Jewish traditions in the Targums preserve other half-legendary lore about the pair. They are called the sons of Balaam, the unwitting prophet of Peor. It was also claimed that they converted to Judaism, and that they left Egypt at the Exodus; however, they perished on the way, either at the Red Sea, or the destruction of the Golden Calf, or at the slaughter of Korah and his followers.[citation needed]

Apart from their opposition to Moses there are other legends about these two Egyptian sorcerers; it was said that during the end of their days they had necessary occult knowledge to embark on a journey to the Judeo-Christian heavens. It shouldn't be a surprise to know that they were not welcomed and the angels of the first few heavens fought them vigorously but they could not evict them due to the potent talismans that were worn by the wizards. As they entered the fourth heaven they were met by Michael and Gabriel, the battle legend says was very evenly balanced, but in the end it was the angels who had to fall back. Upon entering the fifth heaven they were met by none other than Metatron, who did not come at them with defiance or anger, but appeared accommodating, considering the circumstances; after conversing for a short time the angel was successful in convincing Jannes and Jambres to remove their talismans, leaving them thus vulnerable. Metatron was quick to act and threw them out of heaven with a wave of his hand. It is said that they lost all memory of the event after that


Interesting.. Any comments or additional information

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Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun May 10, 2009 11:34 am

It took me a while to find these, because they aren't actually mentioned by name in Exodus, and they're not usually spelled that way in English. They're names only come to us from the New Testament - in 2 Timothy - so only have their names spelled in Greek, not in Hebrew.

The Greek spellings are 'Iannhs and 'Iambrhs. These enumerate, respectively, to 319 and 361. That may be of some use to you.

The Wikipedia story about their journeys into the Jewish heaven is a hoot!
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Postby Kingsolomon » Sun May 10, 2009 12:05 pm

93 Jim


Thank you!. I figured Wikipedia someone wrote a blind about the priest.. There is Power in there magick.. It's pure egyptian.. The home of magick that can probably thelp the furtherance of the A.'. A.'. what do you think Jim. I can do what I can to contact what they had in the past.. I plan to do some action. if you know what I mean

Does anyone else have information about the Jannes and Jambres which is Spelled diffrently
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun May 10, 2009 5:07 pm

Kingsolomon wrote:There is Power in there magick.. It's pure egyptian.. The home of magick that can probably thelp the furtherance of the A.'. A.'. what do you think Jim.

Well, only since you asked: No, I wouldn't agree with this.

Does anyone else have information about the Jannes and Jambres which is Spelled diffrently

:?:
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Postby Aum418 » Mon May 11, 2009 8:35 am

Kingsolomon wrote:93 Jim

Thank you!. I figured Wikipedia someone wrote a blind about the priest.. There is Power in there magick.. It's pure egyptian.. The home of magick that can probably thelp the furtherance of the A.'. A.'. what do you think Jim. I can do what I can to contact what they had in the past.. I plan to do some action. if you know what I mean

Does anyone else have information about the Jannes and Jambres which is Spelled diffrently

Who cares? Its some random names in the Bible and possible some old historical character. And?

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Postby deleted » Mon May 11, 2009 8:54 am

Another thing that may throw a wrench in what you're seeking is the tendency of ancient writers to present historically familiar names and characters in their stories.

For example, the last story you site would seem to be specifically to demonstrate the ultimate failure of their kind of thinking and magic. The historicity of it ...well... if Jannes and Jambres forgot the entire incident themselves... then who recorded it, you know? The answer would seem to be some well-meaning Rabbi who wished to demonstrate that while they were worthy of the reputation they had, they were not worthy of making it to the end and were cast down, not even remembering the glory of what they'd experienced.

In the past, it seems writers had no problem recycling names and stories to create newer and better stories. Though they are probably not on the low level of the old Western dimestore novels about Billy the Kid and others, they are probably just about that fictional. All I'm saying is that you may be on a bit of a wild goose chase - at least with some of these old stories. I'd stick to the moral of the story rather than the history in many of these cases. Just a warning. Do as thou wilt.

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Postby Kingsolomon » Mon May 11, 2009 10:31 am

93

Well, aum, what rude response. I could say a lot of foolish things brother but this is about theory and practical testing..
I had a post in another forum. I believe it was initiation where I said about crowley and if no one had a tutor or teacher to teach an initiate, then he could peform a necromancy working to find a teacher. My point is, Everything is essentially, theory. And Rabbi's have distorted history to conform to their own.

If anyone wants to be techinical, then why practice the kabbalah, it's a jewish theory that links to biblical knowledge from the old testament..

You see what i'm saying brother. as magicians we test theories, some workings will be failures but we record these in our journals anyhow, because it never hurts to ask and it never hurts to try. What some might think is foolish might turn out to be worthy of holy knowledge lead by the spirit..

I'm not trying to create an argument, i'm just stating why i started this topic about Jannes and Jambres, I know that the scriptures are tainted. and rabbi's hid true knowledge. I know that. eh, nevermind. It's just foolish to not take everything into consideration.

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Postby deleted » Mon May 11, 2009 12:50 pm

Kingsolomon wrote:
I'm not trying to create an argument, i'm just stating why i started this topic about Jannes and Jambres, I know that the scriptures are tainted. and rabbi's hid true knowledge. I know that. eh, nevermind. It's just foolish to not take everything into consideration.


Yes, I'm not arguing with the possibility. Levi claimed to have summoned Apollonius of Tyana with rather astonishing results...

My questions have more to do with whether or not you'd be trying to summon fictional characters - or perhaps individuals who have not lived the fictions attributed to them - and well... what might happen if that's true?

A deeper question goes to whether the stories themselves describe Jannes and Jambres as individuals worthy of learning from. I'm sure you have read more than I have about them, but from your own example, one account describes them as ones who could not hear the truth while another describes them as being put down by Metatron - assuming a good reason for doing so. The stories seem to describe them as powerful but missing the big picture - kind of like Balaam himself.

Sounds like most of the stories are concerned with explaining them away. Kind of like, "Yeah... they were powerful enough to trouble Moses, but in the end, they converted, were overthrown, etc. by OUR God." "Their magic was strong, but not as strong as ours" kind of thing...

Seems like you end up in a situation where it falls on you to determine their legitimacy (if you can get them to show), and that just sounds...

ehh... honestly... it just sounds like something beyond my personal range and scope, so I'm encouraging healthy caution and skepticism.

Gold and Silver have I none, but what I have I give to thee. It's kinda scholarly and boring and steeped in historical criticism of Christian and Jewish Scriptures, and it may seem to throw water on your fire, but there you go for what it's worth. May it add whatever it adds to your coming operation.

peace,

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Postby the atlas itch » Tue May 12, 2009 8:18 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Kingsolomon wrote:There is Power in there magick.. It's pure egyptian.. The home of magick that can probably thelp the furtherance of the A.'. A.'. what do you think Jim.

Well, only since you asked: No, I wouldn't agree with this.

Jim - I would be interested to hear your further thoughts on this.

Do you think its better to keep various systems separate and not mix them as a general rule, or because Abramelin advises one should stick with the system he or she was raised in as a child, or because Kabbalah is superior to Egyptian? And do you regard the Tree of Life glyph to be unique to the Hebrew tradition or one that can be found in other cultures, but finds its purest expression in Judaism?

My own research has discovered the Tree in Sufism, Assyrian engravings (the famous image of two winged gods with beaks standing over a tree in the Berlin Pergamon), Nordic cultures (Yggdrasil) etc.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue May 12, 2009 8:25 am

the atlas itch wrote:
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Kingsolomon wrote:There is Power in there magick.. It's pure egyptian.. The home of magick that can probably thelp the furtherance of the A.'. A.'. what do you think Jim.

Well, only since you asked: No, I wouldn't agree with this.

Jim - I would be interested to hear your further thoughts on this.

Well, there are a number of individual things you said (in the part to which I was responding) with which I don't agree. For example, I don't think this legend is of any likely historic significance. One might well take the historic record of the great John Yoo in the court of George W. Bush and his amazing powers at confirming that torture of Gitmo prisoners is legal. Historical existence (even if it is authentic and undistorted) doesn't mean the historical figure had anything legitimate to contribute.

I also don't agree that the source is any more authentic a form of magic, and I certainly don't agree that it would be of any use to the A.'.A.'. as such (which was your main point). - That training system is essentially indifferent to such points.

And do you regard the Tree of Life glyph to be unique to the Hebrew tradition or one that can be found in other cultures, but finds its purest expression in Judaism?

I regard the Tree of Life etc. as of universal importance, and the best foundation we have for Work. The Jews were only the caretakers of the Qabalistic system (and, for that matter, the Hebrew language), which is as close to a universal system as has ever yet appeared.
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Postby the atlas itch » Tue May 12, 2009 9:28 am

OK thanks for the clarification.

Btw I could not help but note one of the names of the Egyptian priests, Iambrhs, is close to Iamblichus who wrote the famous theurgical treatise On The Mysteries of Egypt. The text had a major influence on Nostradamus and his thinking:

http://www.esotericarchives.com/oracle/iambl_th.htm

Regarding the demon Astaroth living under the waters of the Nile, it sounds like nonsense to me - the name is not even Egyptian. But just because a demon comes from a role playing game does not mean it won't have an effect...
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Postby Kingsolomon » Wed May 13, 2009 6:26 am

93

Ha, about the last comment Astorath is not from a video game, I meant that there was a demon closely associate with astorath who lives beneath the nile river. it's in the google searches for Jannes and Jambres or Innnes and Innabres.

I've called up astorath, trust me he's not nothing Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger or Secret of Mana or Warcraft, He made things happen, lol..


I think you guys for your thoughts it might be a dangerous thing to summon up the two egyptian priest

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Postby __THE_HERMIT__ » Wed May 13, 2009 7:36 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:. The Jews were only the caretakers of the Qabalistic system (and, for that matter, the Hebrew language), which is as close to a universal system as has ever yet appeared.

You admit of course Jim that this is a personal bias?

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Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed May 13, 2009 7:40 am

Scapegoat wrote:
Jim Eshelman wrote:. The Jews were only the caretakers of the Qabalistic system (and, for that matter, the Hebrew language), which is as close to a universal system as has ever yet appeared.

You admit of course Jim that this is a personal bias?

Bias? No.

Opinion? Yes, in the same way that the vast majority of statements are opinions. But it's based on a long-term, balanced assessment of the whole terrain, not an a priori prejudice that excludes substantive evidence.
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Postby Fr Cognosco cum Lux » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:20 am

DWTWSBTWOFL

Why would you want to study the losers?
Moses' snake whipped their asses
When they threw down their rods and they became snakes
Moses' fiery snake ripped those Pharoh's laughing boys snakes a new one.

Seriously, I've always kind of considered this act as a blind faith in god move. Still the snake imagery when only a couple chapters before the symbol was tied to adversary...then later Moses erects his staff again and makes a copper snake for the IsRaELites to gawp at and be saved...I really do think this is in reference to Caduceus process Nadis Sushumana winged disc expansion and liberation. Alchemically transmuting the venom.

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Egypt was famous for it's magicians

Postby AliceKnewIt » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:09 pm

It's doubtful that Moses existed. He may have been a composite of several people, or he may have been pure myth.

So I doubt that Jannes and Jambres were historical either.

But Egypt was famous in the ancient world for it's magicians. The Talmud states:
"Ten measures of magic have come into the world. Egypt received nine of these, the rest of the world one measure." (Talmud b. Qid. 49b)

If you want to learn about Egyptian magick, it's best to consult the original hieroglyphic texts. Bob Brier wrote a good introductory book, for an overview.

Still, Bible stories are interesting, and it's interesting that people wanted to put names to the Egyptian magicians mentioned in Exodus, and to know more about them.
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Re: Jannes and Jambres; the magic practicing priest of egypt

Postby Rabbi Reuben Isaacs » Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:59 pm

I am a Jewish Kabbalist and am fluent in Hebrew, and I can supply you with information about Jannes and Jambres. The reason that it is so difficult to find more information about them is that like the majority of occultists, you are not Hebraists. This is not intended as a slight. A monolingual person has my respect just as much as a multilingual person.

First of all, the correct Hebrew names are Yochane and Mamre. Yochane is a variant of John, and Mamre is a name that occurs in the Torah (Genesis 13:18, 14:13, 24 and 18:1), and signifies "rebellious". In the Kabbalah, they are the two sons of Balaam, the latter being designated "the wisest of the wise" and the greatest of Magi. He was called Balaam because his birth was the result of a special request to the god Bel to whose service he was dedicated and in whose service he acquired skill in the magic arts. His sons, Yochane and Mamre, were dedicated in the same way but to the Egyptian god Serapis, of whom they became priests and holy scribes. The collection of Kabbalistic literature entitled Yalkut Reuveni (which exists only in Hebrew) tells us (quoting a midrash) the source of Balaam's magic powder. He derived it from the letters Yud and Mem (Yalkut Reuveni Balak 4b). You ought to be well enough versed in Western occultism to make the connections between these two letters in the Kabbalah. The Kabbalistic Rabbis also furnish us with the source of the magic power of Yochane and Mamre. At the urging of Yochane and Mamre, the Israelites forced Aaron to make the golden calf for them (Exodus 32). The calf which Aaron made at Sinai was part ox and part ass, the ox symbolising the magic power of Yochane and the ass symbolising that of Mamre. The ox represents Sammael and the ass represents Rahab (Yalkut Reuveni Ki Tissa 80a on Exodus 32:4, 81a on Exodus 32:11 and 82b on Exodus 32:5; Zohar Ki Tissa 192b; Tikkune ha-Zohar 5 [142a]). Rahab, incidentally, has nothing to do with the prostitute of the same name in the Bible. In all pre-Kabbalistic and Kabbalistic Hebrew literature, Rahab is exclusively a male demon, one of the fathers of demons, the "Sar Shel Yam" or Prince of the Sea. "Yam", by the way, is spelled with a Yud and a Mem, showing that the sources of magic power for Mamre were the same as that of his father Balaam. In the Testament of Solomon, which should be accessible to you in English (vide. F. C. Conybeare), the demon of the Red Sea, Abezitibod ("Father Devoid Of Counsel"), reveals himself as the source of the magical power of Yochane and Mamre (Testament of Solomon 25:3-4; cf. 6:3, 5-6 in the McCown edition [in Greek]). In the Book of Jubilees (known as "The Little Genesis"), it is the demon Mastema ("Hatred") (cf. Charles, Pseudepigrapha for an English translation).

There is more, much more, but I have not the time to translate it all for you from original sources. I know nothing of a demon who lives under the Nile river and is associated with Ashtaroth, but if you can send me the link or the source I will see if I can find anything about it in the Hebrew Kabbalistic literature.

I am not a Thelemite, by the way, but a sympathetic Jewish Kabbalist who would like to ensure that all those who are devoted to the Kabbalah explore it safely and accurately.
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Re: Jannes and Jambres; the magic practicing priest of egypt

Postby Rabbi Reuben Isaacs » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:07 pm

CORRIGENDA: I mistakenly typed "Balaam's magic powder" for "Balaam's magic power". It's power, not powder, lest anyone get the wrong impression. Also, the website censored me, obviously mistaking Rahab's representation for a profane word. I would ask that the moderators please correct this. We should be able to discuss this animal without anyone taking it for profanity. A donkey, a mule, are the closest I can come to describing the representation of Rahab without getting censored again!
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Re: Jannes and Jambres; the magic practicing priest of egypt

Postby Kingsolomon » Mon May 23, 2011 4:30 pm

Thanks for that Kind sir. I would like to do kabbalistic/qlipothic research myself. And the Jannes and Jambres thing always impressed me. Growing up, I was told the Torah was magick and was very demonic and Un-Christian, and It is not the power of Jehovah/YHVH. or Yeheshuah. well, In fact.. it is.. I have many things to say, but thats for another topic.

Im glad i started this topic and thread.. I always read how King David conquered his enemies, with CONSTANT prayer and a much deep friendship and great relationship with YHVH, I thought that, that was all it took to get close to the Jewish God. But now we know theres another side to the coin. This is how Yeheshuah said he had conquered the world in the greek scriptures... And this is why Aleister Crowley said the Jews have half of the Law to make it whole.


By the way. Remember, Always support Israel, you'll never go wrong, and never support antisemitism.

Your magick in kabbalah will be stronger if you read the above sentence, If anyone thinks im bullshitting.. Try it for yourself..

However, my question is, what is the magick of mamre and how can it be obtained?

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