"Thelemites for Trump" Facebook page

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Re: "Thelemites for Trump" Facebook page

Postby seekinghga » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:42 pm

Avshalom Binyamin wrote:The current plane is a discussion of "Thelemites" for Trump.

Discussion of whether one can thwart the will of an Ipsissimus seems off topic to me.

I only brought it up because it was related to where my original post in this thread was.

You vote wrong and you get huge wealth gaps. And some guy trying to peddle you a zen koan that says if you were more enlightened it wouldn't hurt so bad.

Somewhere strange, somewhere new
There is only a part of you
That stands at the threshold of a golden dawn:
But you close your eyes
You believe the dream, you
Stare into there,
Though he says you must deal with it,
He never said otherwise,
And the trees grow,
The world goes on withon and without and withor our freedom
Because that love is true...
"And they that read the book and debated thereon passed into the desolate land of Barren Words. And they that sealed up the book into their blood were the chosen of Adonai, and the Thought of Adonai was a Word and a Deed; and they abode in the Land that the far-off travellers call Naught."
- LXV 5:59
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Re: "Thelemites for Trump" Facebook page

Postby Takamba » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:52 am

According to Aleister Crowley, democracy isn't Thelemic in the first place: forcing people to participate in things just because an alleged majority says you have to. At least, according to Aleister Crowley - but never mind him, he's just a Class B kinda guy and product of his times (sexism, drugs, racism, dwarfism, those topics et al).

Vote the right way and the government gets out of people's way.

Vote the wrong way and the government is your mom and dad and knows better than you "and we're here to help."
"If we are to have Beauty and Love, whether in begetting children or works of art, or what not, we must have perfect freedom to act, without fear or shame or any falsity."
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Re: "Thelemites for Trump" Facebook page

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:48 am

A country can be any form of government, and still promote conditions suitable to Thelema. It could even hypothetically be a benevolent dictatorship, I guess. Though that's not commonly how dictatorships work, and there's still the issue of who replaces the benevolent dictator when they die.

There are a lot of values that a government can help promote, including prosperity, freedom for artistic freedom, religious freedom. And the US does pretty good in some respects. Though race and gender influence our job, wealth, and survival prospects too much and our pollution threatens to make the planet uninhabitable.

I'm not sure what the '80s talk radio bit about "mom and dad" government corresponds to in the real world, or what seeekinghga's comments been. But thank you both for showing to demonstrate fluffy peddlers of soothing koans for the politically disenfranchised.

Libertarianism is just nonsense designed to take away protections from the individual in favor of big corporations. But you're welcome to cite an example of a libertarian country that you think creates conditions that promote Thelema.
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Re: "Thelemites for Trump" Facebook page

Postby Takamba » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:24 am

"We're with Thelema, and we're here to help."

Seriously? You've come to this incarnation to interfere with the Wills of individuals simply so you can sleep snuggly believing you've done no harm?

Even Jim has stated that not everyone's will is to be healed.

ah, but he's a Class B guy also, so maybe it doesn't count.

Whatever fits.
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Re: "Thelemites for Trump" Facebook page

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:49 am

Every man and every woman is a star.

(Not just old, white, rich people and their corporations.)

Ok, so far we have (1) thought-ending scare blips about nanny state (2) attacks on my purpose in life and (3) misleading appeals to authority figures.

I usually see much better from you, Takamba.
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Re: "Thelemites for Trump" Facebook page

Postby Takamba » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:33 pm

Avshalom Binyamin wrote:Every man and every woman is a star.

(Not just old, white, rich people and their corporations.)

Ok, so far we have (1) thought-ending scare blips about nanny state (2) attacks on my purpose in life and (3) misleading appeals to authority figures.

I usually see much better from you, Takamba.


Declaring "logical fallacy" in a muted debate seems a little self-taught by the Internet's trends to me. Saying that a person we know has here in these very forums stated without reservation that a person has to request the healing of the A.'.A.'.'s light and that not even that is guaranteed because it might be at odds with their Will (capital W version there for reasons) is not an appeal to authority, it's citing a source. Or are you saying Jim is not an authority and should be regarded as false in any premise attached to him?

I'm middle-aged, white, and living in a vehicle because I'm a beach bum.
so that was wrong too.

Just because you don't like my opinion doesn't mean it is the wrong opinion to have and that it is not based on solid reasoning and long inspected ethical and moral questioning. Attacking my arguments with unsubstantiated word-smithing is fruitless. If you have information to support your claim that how you vote is based on your desire to expand the division of the classes and yet not once do you even acknowledge having read that I said it was the expansion of government powers, then say something. Insulting me personally does not score you debate points.

Point number 1: The Constitution exists to restrict government powers and rights.
Point number 2: Any responsibility you give to the government comes with the surrender of rights.

Vote as ye will.
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Re: "Thelemites for Trump" Facebook page

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:56 pm

The old, rich, white, man was about the demographic Trump's policies are designed to support, not which ones you fit. I already knew yours.

I don't know what Jim's statements about requests for healing have to do with anything. What's misleading is pretending they somehow support your political opinions.

Despite your someone interesting 2 points, the constitution's first sentence contains its purpose:

in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity


Maybe you could pick something measurable that you connect with making it easier for the most people to live their true wills, and describe how Trump has improved that metric?

So far the only bill he has signed is a tax bill, which gives 83% of tax cuts to the wealthiest 1% of the nation. It's an expansion of the class divide.

This ain't rocket science, no matter how much you want to spin the situation with mumbo jumbo. Trump's policies *harm* people, which hinders their ability to do the great work. It disproportionately harms women, non-whites, and the poor. I pray to Horus that we can eradicate his selfish, narcissistic, racist, sexist, fascist discourse from our politics within my lifetime, if not within yours.
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Re: "Thelemites for Trump" Facebook page

Postby seekinghga » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:58 am

Avshalom Binyamin wrote:I'm not sure what the '80s talk radio bit about "mom and dad" government corresponds to in the real world, or what seeekinghga's comments been. But thank you both for showing to demonstrate fluffy peddlers of soothing koans for the politically disenfranchised.

I'll just say one thing more in this thread, then I promise you that I'm done. My first remark I made was a carelessness on my part. I'll admit that. I saw an opportunity to discuss a certain aspect of philosophy and went for it, completely ignorant of the politically charged agenda that this thread seems to be sizzling with. In no way was it my intention to say that "if life sucks then get more enlightened." And I'm pretty damn sure that at no point did I say anything which remotely resembles that admonishment, though people will extract what they want from the words of others. My wrongdoing is this thread is that I was off topic. It's a bad habit because on other forums I post on that's allowed with more leniency than it appears it is wanted here, which is fine. I apologize for my transgression and place myself at the mercy of the forum courts.

Bottom line. Our rights can be thwarted AND our rights can not be thwarted. It's dependent on one's perspective. That's all that I was implying, however poorly a job I did at doing so. It's right there in the very first sentence of my very first post in this thread. All of my talk of flowers and Suns and Ipsissimuses (sp?) was only for the sake of clarifying the philosophical implications of the first half of that sentence, I was not telling anyone what to do or what to be or what to think. Is it right to say that Liber Legis unfairly mocks the trevails of our lives because at one point it insists that "existence is pure joy" and that we are to "Remember" that?

Again, my apologies to Avshalom Binyamin and everyone else for going being off topic and for that dreadful, horribly ill-conceived "poem" in my last post. It was simply never my intention to enter into a political debate. Shame on me for not pondering the title of this thread for more than a fraction of a second.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"And they that read the book and debated thereon passed into the desolate land of Barren Words. And they that sealed up the book into their blood were the chosen of Adonai, and the Thought of Adonai was a Word and a Deed; and they abode in the Land that the far-off travellers call Naught."
- LXV 5:59
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Re: "Thelemites for Trump" Facebook page

Postby oldfriend56 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:10 am

"Politics" can mean almost anything - and the word often contains human psychologies battling it out over ideologies.

But "politics" also means something more administrative, a utility that society has to solve problems and administer solutions to commonly shared problems.

Sometimes, it is probably wise to put away any ideology, thelema or otherwise - if it interfers in solving real world problems that stare us in the face.

Did either Hillary or Trump come close to even reflecting my ideals? No, of course not. Hardly any candidate ever has.

An election is a practical choice which is more important than any ideology. How do we make this thing work? How do we get closer to having a more healthy society?

Democracy, for example - is inherently flawed (see 2016 election as recent example) yet as citizens, it is the only thing we have.

In 2016 we had a very very clear practical choice - and for many it was confused as an ideological choice. Ouch.

Now how would Thelema come in? In how we view ourselves in the world, and the world itself. We don't fear the collapse of the old order (sheesh who could deny that is not in full effect these days?).

We live in a time right now where while the old order is collapsing (including democracy) we have new emerging things that keep the "ideals" of the old order intact (for example openness and participatory) but can be updated to reflect a more efficient and "better" order. Cryptocurrency is one example of this, and of course the internet itself. Technology I believe is the central theme of the third chapter (this is only my interpretation) that is both collapsing the old and building the new.
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Re: "Thelemites for Trump" Facebook page

Postby oldfriend56 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:20 am

Also, just a final thought of Liber Oz.

I always thought that line "the right to kill those who would..." was problematic, and for years suspected there was some hidden zen somewhere that I was missing.

Surely I don't have the right kill someone because I demand a salmon dinner and they refuse my request, and there are much better ways to solve a problem if someone is thwarting my rights than to kill them.

Then I did kinda get the joke - the contradiction that dangles like so much in Thelema and Crowlianity.

If you kill someone because you believe they are thwarting your rights, then by definition you are also thwarting all of their rights to do the same (independent if they are truly thwarting your "rights" or not) since you have extinguished their physical existence. So that extinguishes itself.

Also, if you are restricting your own will - then you're own thoughts are thwarting your rights, and verily and amen - kill those bloody thoughts with fire and vengeance, spit upon them and laugh at their misery.
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