Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

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Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby FiatYod » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:52 am

When I get to know of a new Adept (or, at least, someone who has been a Thelemite/magician for a long period of time, and seems to know their stuff), I try to check out their work and publications online.
Lately I started to get the feeling that when people become Adepts (not sure if "become" is a good word, but you get the point), their work starts to shift towards Magick, initiation and even Adepthood itself.
The authors' books, the musicians' compositions, the poets' poems, the painters' paintings - they all seem to be focused on expressing how splendid the experiences of an Adept are, how great Magick and Thelema are and how you should be an Adept, too. Even programmers tend to spend a lot of time in writing Thelema-related applications, scripts for Magick, etc.

While it may be useful to mankind, don't you think they could have expressed their True Wills more usefully than that? I know that to answer this question would take deep, personal knowledge of each and every Adept whose work is like that, but I'm talking about general impressions here.
I guess that besides self-expression, they truly want to help others: being a wolf among sheep can feel nice sometimes, but then again, wolves should be traveling in packs, and so the wolf is trying to get others into wolfhood, so to speak.

I have a feeling that my feeling is wrong (excuse the seemingly self-contradictory wording), and it may be so for a few reasons:
1. The works that shifted towards Magick which I've mentioned are all from very specific fields - what about the others? For instance, I have never heard of a chef who started to serve only Magick-related dishes after he had become an Adept. Then again, I have never heard of any Adept chef... Sheesh, it seems like all the Adepts today are programmers or artists ("or", not "xor")!
2. Some people's work truly is in Tiphareth, like Crowley's work was. So having their entire work Magick-related is actually what they should be doing.
3. Working on some Magick-related side projects can help the Adepts improve their craft. For example, the programmer who writes a Thoth Tarot application becomes a better programmer by doing so, and then he could use his improved skills for the expression of his True Will.

Help me destroy some illusions by sharing your thoughts! :D
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby Takamba » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:08 am

My thoughts worth sharing (???).

Not all "magick" involves Encochian, Hebrew, Wands, Swords, and the like. Some magick involves keyboards, guitars, and such. Some magick involves corporate labels. Some magick involves food. Some magick involves medicine. Some magicians look like janitors too. Part of the "problem" you may be seeing may be the problem of your limits of seeing.

And defining.

What is an Adept? Are we only defining that word under the Golden Dawn's umbrella? Well, then they all look like Golden Dawn styled adepts and not other! Of course! But if you say to yourself "Paul McCartney could be an Adept and what would we know of that?" Paul M may or may not ever given a Masonic grip or passkey, but he's responsible for a great deal of Thelemic impact on the world (not to mention the rest of the dog show, JohnGeorgeRingo). Or maybe it was John all along who was the true adept and mystic and Paul just followed along like George.

Maybe there are adepts out their in all sorts of fields making all sorts of harvest. Maybe psychology is filled with adepts and we just don't know because they stay in their field. Maybe NASA is working with a few adepts and "Adepts," and maybe they just don't think about oogy boogy stuff, just sciency stuff. I don't know.

Or according to one kind of reconning I've encountered, and am holding some stock in, if we go from the very beginning and we dare imagine measuring unto the very end, we will all become adepts and we will all become as one and we will all become. And it will be done.

What say you to that?
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby Takamba » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:09 am

My thoughts worth sharing (???).

Not all "magick" involves Encochian, Hebrew, Wands, Swords, and the like. Some magick involves keyboards, guitars, and such. Some magick involves corporate labels. Some magick involves food. Some magick involves medicine. Some magicians look like janitors too. Part of the "problem" you may be seeing may be the problem of your limits of seeing.

And defining.

What is an Adept? Are we only defining that word under the Golden Dawn's umbrella? Well, then they all look like Golden Dawn styled adepts and not other! Of course! But if you say to yourself "Paul McCartney could be an Adept and what would we know of that?" Paul M may or may not ever given a Masonic grip or passkey, but he's responsible for a great deal of Thelemic impact on the world (not to mention the rest of the dog show, JohnGeorgeRingo). Or maybe it was John all along who was the true adept and mystic and Paul just followed along like George.

Maybe there are adepts out their in all sorts of fields making all sorts of harvest. Maybe psychology is filled with adepts and we just don't know because they stay in their field. Maybe NASA is working with a few adepts and "Adepts," and maybe they just don't think about oogy boogy stuff, just sciency stuff. I don't know.

Or according to one kind of reconning I've encountered, and am holding some stock in, if we go from the very beginning and we dare imagine measuring unto the very end, we will all become adepts and we will all become as one and we will all become. And it will be done.

What say you to that?
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby seekinghga » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:15 pm

being a wolf among sheep can feel nice sometimes, but then again, wolves should be traveling in packs, and so the wolf is trying to get others into wolfhood, so to speak.

This is an inaccurate way of seeing things, FY. "Pack of wolves" serves as a faulty metaphor. Adepthood, in the technical sense of the A:.A:. represents the burgeoning dawn of real selflessness. The HGA is One, “I am alone: there is no God where I am.”; the angles from which this is conceptualized and shared to others are the source of the apparent multiplicity of Adepts. This becomes more obvious as one unveils more of the "Path" or "Tree" (or wtf ever) “within” themselves.

OK, my previous paragraph is neither here nor there! ;) The drive of any serious Adept shares partial analog to this. Yes, the Adept wants to help others as you say, as the naturally expanding selflessness encompassed by that state shifts focus by default. The methods of some "adepts" (i.e. "work and publications") are subject to scrutiny... One must question "why?" Books are helpful to an extent...

Solvitur ambulando.
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby Hermitas » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:07 am

I just figure you only hear from the ones who are teachers.
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby FiatYod » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:43 pm

Takamba wrote:My thoughts worth sharing (???).

Not all "magick" involves Encochian, Hebrew, Wands, Swords, and the like. Some magick involves keyboards, guitars, and such. Some magick involves corporate labels. Some magick involves food. Some magick involves medicine. Some magicians look like janitors too. Part of the "problem" you may be seeing may be the problem of your limits of seeing.

And defining.

What is an Adept? Are we only defining that word under the Golden Dawn's umbrella? Well, then they all look like Golden Dawn styled adepts and not other! Of course! But if you say to yourself "Paul McCartney could be an Adept and what would we know of that?" Paul M may or may not ever given a Masonic grip or passkey, but he's responsible for a great deal of Thelemic impact on the world (not to mention the rest of the dog show, JohnGeorgeRingo). Or maybe it was John all along who was the true adept and mystic and Paul just followed along like George.

Maybe there are adepts out their in all sorts of fields making all sorts of harvest. Maybe psychology is filled with adepts and we just don't know because they stay in their field. Maybe NASA is working with a few adepts and "Adepts," and maybe they just don't think about oogy boogy stuff, just sciency stuff. I don't know.

Or according to one kind of reconning I've encountered, and am holding some stock in, if we go from the very beginning and we dare imagine measuring unto the very end, we will all become adepts and we will all become as one and we will all become. And it will be done.

What say you to that?

Indeed, I haven't defined what being an Adept means. For now let's stick with the Golden Dawn kind of Adepts, i.e. those who were initiated in this or that magical order and reached what that order defines as Adepthood.
So as you mentioned, some people might have had the equivalent experiences of Adepts, and then just stayed in their field, without trying to get others into the neighborhood of the Adepts, so to speak.
But from your experience with magical orders, how many initiated Adepts weren't influenced by their Adepthood to the degree that it became the main subject of their creative work?

seekinghga wrote:
being a wolf among sheep can feel nice sometimes, but then again, wolves should be traveling in packs, and so the wolf is trying to get others into wolfhood, so to speak.

This is an inaccurate way of seeing things, FY. "Pack of wolves" serves as a faulty metaphor. Adepthood, in the technical sense of the A:.A:. represents the burgeoning dawn of real selflessness. The HGA is One, “I am alone: there is no God where I am.”; the angles from which this is conceptualized and shared to others are the source of the apparent multiplicity of Adepts. This becomes more obvious as one unveils more of the "Path" or "Tree" (or wtf ever) “within” themselves.

OK, my previous paragraph is neither here nor there! ;) The drive of any serious Adept shares partial analog to this. Yes, the Adept wants to help others as you say, as the naturally expanding selflessness encompassed by that state shifts focus by default. The methods of some "adepts" (i.e. "work and publications") are subject to scrutiny... One must question "why?" Books are helpful to an extent...

Solvitur ambulando.

You're right, sorry for the faulty metaphor.
So let me make sure I got it right: did you mean that Adepts' Adepthood-oriented-work is never a waste of their talents because the others who are still stuck in the cave are in such a bad situation, that the Adepts must do everything they can to get them out of there?

Hermitas wrote:I just figure you only hear from the ones who are teachers.

Interesting! This could lead to a statistical method of "banishing":
1. Estimate how many Adepts lived in the last ~116 years
2. Recall how many Adepthood-oriented-work creators you ever came across
3. Divide the result of 2 by the result of 1 (assuming that the result of 1 is not 0)
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby Takamba » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:55 pm

The System A.'.A.'. is a student/teacher (chela/guru) relationship model.
Teaching is one of its methods of teaching. That is, by learning to transmit the knowledge from your teacher to your student, you improve your methods toward attaining. It's all a symbolic model of the K&C.
Naturally if the System A.'.A.'. produces Adepts, then Adepts are going to look like teachers. Adepthood is teaching, teaching is the path to Adepthood.
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby danica » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:51 pm

Takamba wrote:The System A.'.A.'. is a student/teacher (chela/guru) relationship model.
[...] by learning to transmit the knowledge from your teacher to your student, you improve your methods toward attaining.


Essentially, the whole point of attaining is to transmit.
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby Takamba » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:26 am

danica wrote:
Takamba wrote:The System A.'.A.'. is a student/teacher (chela/guru) relationship model.
[...] by learning to transmit the knowledge from your teacher to your student, you improve your methods toward attaining.


Essentially, the whole point of attaining is to transmit.


by improving on knowledge & conversation, you attain to knowledge & conversation in order to transmit knowledge & conversation.
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby FiatYod » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:09 am

Takamba wrote:The System A.'.A.'. is a student/teacher (chela/guru) relationship model.
Teaching is one of its methods of teaching. That is, by learning to transmit the knowledge from your teacher to your student, you improve your methods toward attaining. It's all a symbolic model of the K&C.
Naturally if the System A.'.A.'. produces Adepts, then Adepts are going to look like teachers. Adepthood is teaching, teaching is the path to Adepthood.

Though sometimes it seems like their creative work is about inspiring others to take the path, rather than teaching others about the path. Such works may include love songs for the HGA and pieces of art which are not riddles to be solved, but just beautiful stuff to behold.
Would you say that this, too, should improve their methods toward attaining?
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby Takamba » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:15 am

FiatYod wrote:
Takamba wrote:The System A.'.A.'. is a student/teacher (chela/guru) relationship model.
Teaching is one of its methods of teaching. That is, by learning to transmit the knowledge from your teacher to your student, you improve your methods toward attaining. It's all a symbolic model of the K&C.
Naturally if the System A.'.A.'. produces Adepts, then Adepts are going to look like teachers. Adepthood is teaching, teaching is the path to Adepthood.

Though sometimes it seems like their creative work is about inspiring others to take the path, rather than teaching others about the path. Such works may include love songs for the HGA and pieces of art which are not riddles to be solved, but just beautiful stuff to behold.
Would you say that this, too, should improve their methods toward attaining?


Indeed but what say you that even Something isn't a riddle to be solved, or that studying the construction of the music in STH isn't instructional about ascension? It's in there and in more places.

To the uninitiated they just look like pop culture. Study is still of value. :alien:
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby seekinghga » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:39 pm

FiatYod wrote:You're right, sorry for the faulty metaphor.
So let me make sure I got it right: did you mean that Adepts' Adepthood-oriented-work is never a waste of their talents because the others who are still stuck in the cave are in such a bad situation, that the Adepts must do everything they can to get them out of there?

Please note that I said that it was only a "partial analog" and so that allegory doesn't quite line up in reality as it does to suggestive food for thought. :) Perhaps some Adepts feel the way that you propose, though it is certainly not always the case. A digression might suffice to contain my interpretation.

The new Adept is in such a state of bewilderment after the "attenuation" of their first few K&Cs that they will often struggle to articulate what has occurred. The absolute (albeit then-temporary) disbandment of all that they have ever known or cherished is such a radical shift to the very rudiments of past experience that their "work" (to use your term from the first paragraph of the OP, FY) will consist of very little but jubilation and accolades of their newfound footing. Yet as the Adept progresses in their way, continuing in their practice, this will eventually turn to more sober, introspective or philosophical accounts. It comes down to the "personal" situation of each Adept to determine their method and their means of transmission. ;)

I have a saying I made up. (Because of course I did! :P) "Dhyana confers certainty. Samadhi confers authority." However, for the Adept who has not yet crossed the Abyss that "authority" is liable to error due to the interference of the Ego's whims and bravado. And when this blight and bluster of self-pomp happens to an inordinate extent it will often manifest in the way of the speaker turning their experience into a theology or dogma---a.k.a. "Restriction." Be wary!

Anyways, let's turn to a Thelemic holy text for a slightly different angle.

In chapter 1 of Liber Legis, Nuit's words are shared thus: "Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known." The Adepts of Nuit are not "secret" because they are in hiding in any way. These Adepts "...wear rich jewels; ye shall exceed the nations of the earth in splendour & pride; but always in the love of me, and so shall ye come to my joy." They embark on life for the sake of the embarking. That is, such an Adept has come to realize the nature of the interplay between perception and perceived, and how this serves as the filament or medium of existence; that both are needed for there to be. Nuit cannot exist without Hadit, and vice versa. Moving on. The true Adepts of Nuit "rule" not through extortion nor bribery nor coercion nor deception nor legalities nor manipulation of any kind. They "rule" by example. That others of a like mind might see their words and their deeds and seek, of their own accord, to forge their own path and attain to become an Adept. There are as many roads to Adepthood as there are people on this planet...

The words of Crowley, in his first major opus after taking on the mantle of Magus of the Aeon of Horus:
"For in each Man his Inmost Light is the Core of his Star. That is, Hadit; and his Work is the Identification of himself with that Light."
- Liber Aleph, ch 1.

Well said, though we might remind Crowley that "Every man and every woman is a star."
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby Takamba » Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:01 am

It's just that some stars are dimmer than other stars, and some stars are bound to other stars, and some stars have planets that orbit them and some don't and we simply must accept that.
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Re: Are Adepts obsessed with Adepthood?

Postby seekinghga » Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:23 am

Takamba wrote:It's just that some stars are dimmer than other stars, and some stars are bound to other stars, and some stars have planets that orbit them and some don't and we simply must accept that.

"The Khabs is in the Khu, not the Khu in the Khabs. Worship then the Khabs, and behold my light shed over you!"
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