Doubts about initiation. Suggestions, please :?

[DullianDreadz]

I've been looking for an useful method to begin my studies in thelema, yet I don't see any improvement...
I found a reading list for A.'. A.'. Initiates and started by reading the equinox vol 1 but I sure have a difficulty with these books because what is discussed there don't seem to me too helpful for someone without any background in these topics...the only one I deem comprehensible is LIBER LIBRÆ SVB FIGVRÂ XXX, sure It seemed logic to me.

However, I'll try to be direct and short with my doubts:

1.Which books could give me preliminary grounding in this religion's ? I mean, some overviews of the methods, means and aims to attain a initial development and basic comprehension of thelema

2 .When I think about thelema instantly comes to my my mind terms like kabbalah , magick and this kind of resources and l think I seriously need to have an objective, comprehensive and clear overview of the use of these on the search of the true will. well, obviously I deem this advanced, but after the first steeps I'll need a way to keep my developing, won't I?

3. I don't quite understand the influence of other religions within thelema. For example, in a reading list there were recommended books from other religions, and my question is if the beliefs of those religions should be added to the thelemitic way of living? (I'm reading the bible, but I consider the reading of this as a study of christian philosophy not to be added to my beliefs, I don't have anything against it, but Jehovah seems to me a barren and unprofitable belief)

4.This is only curiosity: In that reading list mentioned above Alice in wonderland and through the looking glass were also recommended because of their cabbalistic significance, or something like that.
Now there, I would ask: which are the means employed to attain this(gematria?)? and what is the aim of that cabbalistic significance? Well, I have already read Alice in wonderland before that and now I'm reading through the looking glass, though it's not an intent to discover those significances, but because I've always wanted to read those books since childhood (but that wasn't possible then because in my native language I never saw the books, maybe they haven't been translated yet, and that could be logical, for the puns and rhymes are a charming element of the English original and in my language that wouldn't be present)

I'm interested in thelema because after so much reflection and conclusions I separated myself from any joy residing on materialism and wealth, and that was eventually replaced by utter disgust for materialist conducts, and a bit of regret for have been in that misleading path.

Well, I hope this doesn't seem to ignorant or desperate to you all.

[Jim Eshelman]

I've been looking for an useful method to begin my studies in thelema, yet I don't see any improvement...
I found a reading list for A.'. A.'. Initiates and started by reading the equinox vol 1 but I sure have a difficulty with these books because what is discussed there don't seem to me too helpful for someone without any background in these topics...the only one I deem comprehensible is LIBER LIBRÆ SVB FIGVRÂ XXX, sure It seemed logic to me.

So the first step should be to get a teacher, and pledge yourself to that teacher for an extended period of time. Pur yourself in the hands of someone who actually knows what he or she is talking about!

1.Which books could give me preliminary grounding in this religion's ? I mean, some overviews of the methods, means and aims to attain a initial development and basic comprehension of thelema

It's an error to lump "religious" principles of Thelema with practical steps of initiation. Those can be pretty divergent subjects (especially becaue the best initiation system pointedly places little importance on theory). But, for the former, I'd suggest Crowley's commentaries on The Book of the Law, and for the broadest answer to your question - if you insist on a single book - Gems From the Equinox.

But it seems that you really sound some foundation work, so I return to my recommendation to find a good teacher as Step 1. To try to get this out of a book is a fool's journey (small "f").

2 .When I think about thelema instantly comes to my my mind terms like kabbalah , magick and this kind of resources and l think I seriously need to have an objective, comprehensive and clear overview of the use of these on the search of the true will. well, obviously I deem this advanced, but after the first steeps I'll need a way to keep my developing, won't I?

You won't find that (exactly the thing you described) in any book known to me. Nobody has written such a book. But the closest I know is my own book, The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.. I can't say that the overview there is comprehensive on each of the subjects, though. Rather, it intends to show the place and relationship of the various studies, and to refer you to other basic references where they are actually covered in more depth.

3. I don't quite understand the influence of other religions within thelema. For example, in a reading list there were recommended books from other religions, and my question is if the beliefs of those religions should be added to the thelemitic way of living? (I'm reading the bible, but I consider the reading of this as a study of christian philosophy not to be added to my beliefs, I don't have anything against it, but Jehovah seems to me a barren and unprofitable belief)

The purpose of the Student reading list you found is to expose you to a range of thought. It isn't to address what you do or don't believe. Crowley once expressed it this way: "You are expected to spend three months at least on the study of some of the classics on the subject. The chief object of this is not to instruct you, but to familiarise you with the ground work, and in particular to prevent you getting the idea that there is any right or wrong in matters of opinion."

4.This is only curiosity: In that reading list mentioned above Alice in wonderland and through the looking glass were also recommended because of their cabbalistic significance, or something like that.
Now there, I would ask: which are the means employed to attain this(gematria?)? and what is the aim of that cabbalistic significance? Well, I have already read Alice in wonderland before that and now I'm reading through the looking glass, though it's not an intent to discover those significances, but because I've always wanted to read those books since childhood (but that wasn't possible then because in my native language I never saw the books, maybe they haven't been translated yet, and that could be logical, for the puns and rhymes are a charming element of the English original and in my language that wouldn't be present)

I'm pretty sure that Crowley was speaking of the mode of thought demonstrated throughout the work.

I'm interested in thelema because after so much reflection and conclusions I separated myself from any joy residing on materialism and wealth, and that was eventually replaced by utter disgust for materialist conducts, and a bit of regret for have been in that misleading path.

There's nothing in Thelema necessarily consist with disgust for the material, nor the separation of oneself from any sort of joy whatseover.

Well, I hope this doesn't seem to ignorant or desperate to you all.

We all start somewhere! Welcome to the forum.

[underabloodredsky]

There are two books I highly recommend, "The Tree of Life" and "The Garden of Pomegranites" both by Israel Regardie. If you are going to understand Crowley, it often helps to become familiar with the Golden Dawn first. I also recommend Dion Fortune's "The Mystical Quaballah", but The Garden of P. covers the material well.

I have do disagree with the advice on the first thing one should do is find a teacher and commit to an extended period of time. That's kind of like marrying the first girl (or guy) you have sex with. Sometimes that works, but usually no.

Experiment, talk to people, read, and pray. And by praying, I mean aspire to the light within you.

[Persephone]

I have do disagree with the advice on the first thing one should do is find a teacher and commit to an extended period of time. That's kind of like marrying the first girl (or guy) you have sex with. Sometimes that works, but usually no.
Experiment, talk to people, read, and pray. And by praying, I mean aspire to the light within you.

Underabloodredsky, Interesting analogy. I agree with you that finding a teacher is not something to rush into. But on the other hand, some people can't ever commit to marriage or to a teacher and later in life they may wonder what they have missed.

[Jim Eshelman]

I agree with you that finding a teacher is not something to rush into. But on the other hand, some people can't ever commit to marriage or to a teacher and later in life they may wonder what they have missed.

The first teacher isn't a life commitment

The single biggest mistake people make in this is assuming that they can do it on their own. Especially kin the beginning, acknowledge that you don't know anything and find somebody who does. Even the mistakes you make in choosing will be valuable training in discrimination.

[underabloodredsky]

The single biggest mistake people make in this is assuming that they can do it on their own. Especially kin the beginning, acknowledge that you don't know anything and find somebody who does. Even the mistakes you make in choosing will be valuable training in discrimination.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, that's where I have to disagree with you firmly. While I think teachers may be immensely helpful, I absolutely disagree with the notion that one can't do it on one's own. The reality is that we are all on our own.

[Jim Eshelman]

You're entitled to your opinion, of course.

[gurugeorge]

I've been looking for an useful method to begin my studies in thelema, yet I don't see any improvement...
I found a reading list for A.'. A.'. Initiates and started by reading the equinox vol 1 but I sure have a difficulty with these books because what is discussed there don't seem to me too helpful for someone without any background in these topics...the only one I deem comprehensible is LIBER LIBRÆ SVB FIGVRÂ XXX, sure It seemed logic to me.

However, I'll try to be direct and short with my doubts:

1.Which books could give me preliminary grounding in this religion's ? I mean, some overviews of the methods, means and aims to attain a initial development and basic comprehension of thelema

You've had great responses, but I'd just like to say that re. books, "Magick Without Tears" is a mature work, and it does what it says on the tin. Also look at "Little Essays Toward Truth". Also "Eight Lectures on Yoga". In fact all the "later" works are IMHO easier to understand, for the layperson, than the Equinox period stuff.

2 .When I think about thelema instantly comes to my my mind terms like kabbalah , magick and this kind of resources and l think I seriously need to have an objective, comprehensive and clear overview of the use of these on the search of the true will. well, obviously I deem this advanced, but after the first steeps I'll need a way to keep my developing, won't I?

There are two practical things, IMHO: do some sort of meditation practice or breathwork, and learn the Qabalistic correspondences. Jim's advice to find a living teacher is very important, but in the early stages it needn't necessarily be someone in this tradition, as meditation practices in the beginning stages are pretty similar across the board, so something local - a reputable Zen, Theravada or Tibetan Buddhist school, or a Hindu system - would do (be wary, there are charlatans in all traditions). If you do this, follow whatever you're taught strictly for as long as you follow it (i.e. don't try and mix and match yet).

For learning the correspondences, it takes a while (a few months) of boring memorisation, but once you get into the groove it starts to get easier. Just memorise a column from 777 every day, something like that - small amounts regularly.

Once you've studied the Qabalah for a bit and it starts to get internalised and automatic, a lot of the stuff that's baffling you now will make more sense. All these magical writings have several layers of meaning, and lots of subtle allusions based on Qabalistic correspondences, that give the writing a kind of three-dimensional depth. Any good literature has this sort of depth, but magical writing has it in a way that's structured around the correspondences, and it teaches you as you read.

These two things are preparatory for the two "branches" of mysticism and magick. Meditation sets you on the road to mystical experience, and the learning the correspondences prepares you for astral travel.

[JPF]

The single biggest mistake people make in this is assuming that they can do it on their own. Especially kin the beginning, acknowledge that you don't know anything and find somebody who does. Even the mistakes you make in choosing will be valuable training in discrimination.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, that's where I have to disagree with you firmly. While I think teachers may be immensely helpful, I absolutely disagree with the notion that one can't do it on one's own. The reality is that we are all on our own.

True, but there are certain common mistakes a teacher can help one avoid, like doing the LBRP with the wrong quarters for over a year. While studies in isolation build character and resolve, it's nice to have a guiding hand. Besides, every teacher I've encountered in various Thelemic orders has been most gracious and accomodating--really unlike any other system I've encountered.

But again, "Do What Thou Wilt."

[AvshalomBinyamin]

Even Jung had his Philemon.

Everyone needs their own personal guru. After reading this thread, I encountered the following comment from an indian sage, to Jung, once (in the course of reading "Memories, Dreams, and recollections):

"Most people have living gurus. But there are always some who have a spirit for teacher."

Of course, before this, Jung had Freud as a mentor, and learned from much from him - even from his flaws...

[JPF]

Even Jung had his Philemon.

Everyone needs their own personal guru. After reading this thread, I encountered the following comment from an indian sage, to Jung, once (in the course of reading "Memories, Dreams, and recollections):

"Most people have living gurus. But there are always some who have a spirit for teacher."

Of course, before this, Jung had Freud as a mentor, and learned from much from him - even from his flaws...

That's a good point. I remember a passage in the Fama that spoke to me, about how aspirants need only to make an inward choice to undertake the Great Work, and the Powers that Be will see that they are taught, each according to his measure.

But, in the end, Fraternities are exactly that--a fraternity! If you think about it, no great religious teacher acheived "enlightenment" by his fellowship with men. Jesus went into the desert. Mohammed had his cave. Guatama chained himself to a tree (or something like that); Crowley spent most of his early adulthood climbing desolate mountains (when he wasn't worshipping Satan and performing sex acts on children, that is )--the list goes on. It's a deeply personal thing, and the final leap is always undertaken alone. All a fraternity can provide is guidance, and well it works for some. Others are assigned specific gurus, or have "spirit guides" (one wonders about Jung and his Philemon: HGA?). Most will learn by simply eliminating themselves from the gene pool.

But again, once you make that choice, the deed is done. Initiation happens long before anybody joins an order. Like marriage, the ceremony is a mere formality: the real romance needed no Priest to take root.

[FiliusBestia]

93,
Fooling yourself into thinking you can do it all alone only means you haven't reached that point yet. Yes, the work lies on us, the work is ours, but to do it alone means you fall alone without that helping hand to get you back on your feet. Which leads to the lengthy process of getting back up. Who knows, though, maybe this works for some. I did it alone for long enough.
I have to agree with Jim, taking a teacher, for the good or bad, is a teaching process. And if you got half a brain cell, you'll not leap into the first teacher's arms, but feel it out. I don't think the analogy fits very well, with the wife thing. While most aren't virgins when they marry, it's pretty much exactly what's wrong with marriage today. As far as the teacher, it's not permanent, it's not going to take your kids, house, and money, and even if (s)he proves incapable of teaching, you've still learned something to move on with.
Just something to think on. Then again, my teacher found me. Not the other way around. The world presents many opportunities every day.

[FiliusBestia]

93,
A second thought: A teacher is not there to control you, but to guide you. That's the idea behind the A.'.A.'. system. You learn from someone who has passed through that point, and someone who will guide you through the ups and downs, the pit-falls, and the false revelations, etc etc....

[Allogenes]

93

True, but there are certain common mistakes a teacher can help one avoid, like doing the LBRP with the wrong quarters for over a year.

Or unwittingly performing the rituals as published in the popular literature, blinds and all.

93's

A.

[Jim Eshelman]

If you think about it, no great religious teacher acheived "enlightenment" by his fellowship with men. Jesus went into the desert. Mohammed had his cave. Guatama chained himself to a tree (or something like that); Crowley spent most of his early adulthood climbing desolate mountains... It's a deeply personal thing, and the final leap is always undertaken alone.

Yes, the final leap.

But - going by the biographies attributed to the individuals you cited - this was, in all cases, something that occurred after many years of earlier spiritual training. They didn't start at the end - they ended there.

All a fraternity can provide is guidance

Using the word "fraternity," I might agree. Had you said "genuinely contacted Order," I'd disagree much. It can provide far more than you apparently can even dream of.

Initiation happens long before anybody joins an order. Like marriage, the ceremony is a mere formality: the real romance needed no Priest to take root.

That is totally silly. It may be true of a rare person here and there, but, in general, you might as well say that copulation occurs long before losing one's virginity - your statement is that absurd. Initiation is not just a formality. Initiation into a contacted, live extrusion of the Inner Order provides a life-altering linkage that generally inaugurates - initiates! - the most important journey one can and will ever take in life.

[underabloodredsky]

Just to clarify, I did say teachers can be helpful; and what I mean by that, partially speaking, is that one is and can be on their own, and choose a teacher to assist at the same time, if one wishes, or it is one's will to do so, or not to do so. For the record, teachers can be equally and distinctly unhelpful as well.

I think that the notion that one can't initiate oneself or that one can't do it on their own is a huge red flag. This totally puts me off. Regardless of all the other knowledgeable things said here regarding magick, quabala etc., I only listen to and trust my self, and I don't mean my ego, but my HGA, and I don't require anybody for that. Like I said, if I want a teacher, a friend, an enemy a mentor, a student, I can learn from all of them, but I am solely responsible and capable.

There are only two kinds of religion: true and false. True are those that teach Gnosis, that the truth and initiation can only be found and bestowed from within. False are those that teach the same can only be found or bestowed from without.
Let him who has ears to hear, hear.

[AvshalomBinyamin]

Did you have teachers that helped you get in contact with your HGA, or did you do it alone?

[Alrah]

Just to clarify, I did say teachers can be helpful; and what I mean by that, partially speaking, is that one is and can be on their own, and choose a teacher to assist at the same time, if one wishes, or it is one's will to do so, or not to do so. For the record, teachers can be equally and distinctly unhelpful as well.

I think that the notion that one can't initiate oneself or that one can't do it on their own is a huge red flag. This totally puts me off. Regardless of all the other knowledgeable things said here regarding magick, quabala etc., I only listen to and trust my self, and I don't mean my ego, but my HGA, and I don't require anybody for that. Like I said, if I want a teacher, a friend, an enemy a mentor, a student, I can learn from all of them, but I am solely responsible and capable.

There are only two kinds of religion: true and false. True are those that teach Gnosis, that the truth and initiation can only be found and bestowed from within. False are those that teach the same can only be found or bestowed from without.
Let him who has ears to hear, hear.

Well said!

Where ever we find ourselves, and whether we have k & c of the HGA or not, then the Law is for All.

Thelema is a Law based upon the principle of each individual having a divine self, and their solar self is their sovereign. There’s just no getting away from that or dodging it. Acknowledging any other sole, primary and final authority than that of your HGA is a peculiar form of sacrilege really.

[Persephone]

There are only two kinds of religion: true and false. True are those that teach Gnosis, that the truth and initiation can only be found and bestowed from within. False are those that teach the same can only be found or bestowed from without.
Let him who has ears to hear, hear.

I really can't think of a religion that doesn't require membership or alignment in some form. All major western ones do, before a person can fully participate in all the rites of that faith. If I may use an old aeon example, only Catholics may receive communion. The point is that, in that tradition or in a magical one, something is passed along to the person in a rite, whatever you want to calll it, that you can't get even if you became a scholar in that tradition. I remember Joseph Campbell saying a little sadly to Bill Moyers in one of his interviews, that he knew he was a scholar, not an initiate, of any of the many traditions he studied. I think it may be possible rarely, to bypass that route. But not having anyone to compare notes with could be confusing for even the most gifted person, I would think. And most of us are far from that.
And yes, it is true that you may find a teacher who turns out to be abusive or too controlling. It happened to me. If that's the case then its time to leave. But one bad teacher does not condem the whole system.

[Alrah]

There are only two kinds of religion: true and false. True are those that teach Gnosis, that the truth and initiation can only be found and bestowed from within. False are those that teach the same can only be found or bestowed from without.
Let him who has ears to hear, hear.

I really can't think of a religion that doesn't require membership or alignment in some form. All major western ones do, before a person can fully participate in all the rites of that faith. If I may use an old aeon example, only Catholics may receive communion. The point is that, in that tradition or in a magical one, something is passed along to the person in a rite, whatever you want to calll it, that you can't get even if you became a scholar in that tradition. I remember Joseph Campbell saying a little sadly to Bill Moyers in one of his interviews, that he knew he was a scholar, not an initiate, of any of the many traditions he studied. I think it may be possible rarely, to bypass that route. But not having anyone to compare notes with could be confusing for even the most gifted person, I would think. And most of us are far from that.
And yes, it is true that you may find a teacher who turns out to be abusive or too controlling. It happened to me. If that's the case then its time to leave. But one bad teacher does not condem the whole system.

I think it's revealing that you used an old aeon example here.

If you think about how authority was exercised traditionally in the old aeon, then you'll see priests as authority figures preaching on behalf of god on the pulpit. The new aeon is sweeping away all the conventions and old forms of authority and entrenched unbalanced power. People have no interest and turn away from this little bit of entrenched conceited masculine prejudice (exemplified by the old forms of the christian church) to go somewhere they can learn by exploring, asking questions, and learning through play and creativity.

These days the vices of Netzach are well known -

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/phili ... _evil.html

To use a new aeon example of what's expected from an initiate and initiatory groups there's LIBER TZADDI.

6. I am not come to rebuke you, or to enslave you.

10. I am come against sorrow, against weariness, against them that seek to enslave you.

18. Only those who fear shall fail. Those who have bent their backs to the yoke of slavery until they can no longer stand upright; them will I despise.

25. The weak, the timid, the imperfect, the cowardly, the poor, the tearful --- these are mine enemies, and I am come to destroy them.

33. I reveal unto you a great mystery. Ye stand between the abyss of height and the abyss of depth.
34. In either awaits you a Companion; and that Companion is Yourself.
35. Ye can have no other Companion.

[Jim Eshelman]

I continue to chuckle that so many are speaking of the end as if it's the beginning.

Every joke has its punchline; but it isn't very effective without the right setup.

[Alrah]

I continue to chuckle that so many are speaking of the end as if it's the beginning.

Every joke has its punchline; but it isn't very effective without the right setup.

Well the best jokes start with a good observation about how things actually are.

[Jim Eshelman]

Exactly!

And how things actually are for almost everyone is... We approach this subject ignorantly, uneducated, unskilled, without clear direction. The best solution for this is: Find someone informed, experienced, and skilled that can teach and give direction.

[Alrah]

Exactly!

And how things actually are for almost everyone is... We approach this subject ignorantly, uneducated, unskilled, without clear direction. The best solution for this is: Find someone informed, experienced, and skilled that can teach and give direction.

So... all new studets are numbskulls? *raises an eyebrow*

[Jim Eshelman]

Exactly!

And how things actually are for almost everyone is... We approach this subject ignorantly, uneducated, unskilled, without clear direction. The best solution for this is: Find someone informed, experienced, and skilled that can teach and give direction.

So... all new students are numbskulls? *raises an eyebrow*

Everyone born is ignorant. That is, we are born not knowing stuff.

Notice I didn't say stupid. Just uninformed, unskilled, etc.

You aren't born knowing language. Or how to form and maintain a relationship. Or how to repair a computer. Or how to play chess. Or, for that matter, how to train yourself to exceed the baseline of human evolution and move into leading edge spiritual realms that the species as a whjole won't tap for centuries. These things all have to be learned.