What is the relationship-OTO initiations and A.'.A.'.

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Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:51 am

Red Eagle of Death wrote:If I were going to work the Golden Dawn system with the intention of trading off to the A.'.A.'. system at the point which they overlap, would it be best to make that change on account of the symbolism of the Grade or the work being done?

My best advice is to work each system in its own terms, not the terms of another system. So, to get the benefit of each, I'd answer No to the above question.

Which Golden Dawn Grade corresponds to 0=0 & 1=10 in A.'.A.'. in terms of work? what about symbolism?

None corresponds in symbolism to 0=0 per se. The 1=10 A.'.A.' ceremony is based on the G.D. 0=0 ceremony, so it corresponds to the First Order of the G.D. as a whole.

To make this perhaps clearer: Not all of the grade ceremonies in the G.D. should be called initiations. There are, in fact, only two actual initiations in the G.D. system: One into the First Order (0=0) and one into the Second Order (5=6). The intervening rituals accomplish other things, and are valuable, but shouldn't be put on the same level as these two.

It's these two ceremonies that the A.'.A.'.'s founders used as the baseline for its own initiations. The First Order, or 0=0, ceremony (called Neophyte) became the basis of the A.'.A.'. First Order or 1=10 initiation (called Neophyte). The Second Order, or 5=6, ceremony (called Zelator Adeptus Minor) became the basis of the A.'.A.'. Second Order or 2=9 initiation (called Zelator).
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Postby Red Eagle of Death » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:56 am

Is P.I. in O.T.O. analogous to the Royal Arch degree in Freemasonry? or would Royal Arch correspond IV degree of O.T.O.?
Last edited by Red Eagle of Death on Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:57 am

Red Eagle of Death wrote:Is P.I. in O.T.O. analogous to the Royal Arch degree in Freemasonry? or would Royal Arch correspond IV degree of O.T.O.?

The P.I. is analogous to the Prince of Jerusalem degree in Scottish Rite Freemasonry. The Royal Arch is the IV°.
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Postby In Nomine Babalon » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:12 am

Wizardiaoan wrote:
Jim Eshelman wrote:The visible Rosicrucian movement and Freemasonry (and Odd Fellows and a number of other things) developed concurrently around 1600 E.V. ... Freemasonry at the time consisted only of its first two degrees. Rosicrucianism didn't seem to have a degree structure as part of its approach. FM gave to RC the idea of stepped degrees.

I was wondering when you think the degree structure and the 10 Latin Grade Names came to be formed as Steps of Initiation in Rosicrucianism then? Thanks.

1. IPSISSIMVS
2. MAGVS
3. MAGISTER TEMPLI
4. ADEPTVS EXEMPTVS
5. ADEPTVS MAIOR
6. ADEPTVS MINOR
7. PHILOSOPHVS
8. PRACTICVS
9. THEORICVS
10. ZELATOR


This degree structure was and is in use by the SRIA (Society Rosicrucian In Anglica) to which you must be a master mason and a christian to join.
Mathers and the GD founders were high grade officers within SRIA and used the degree structure for the GD which was adopted by Crowley for the AA.
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Postby Wizardiaoan » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:50 am

Yes In Nomine, I know they were adopted by the GD & AA--but my question was if anyone knew when those names and that degree structure originated.

The perfect model for God's creation of the universe is the perfect step ladder for initiation logically, how the creator blew it forward is how we can sail on it back. It also logically is the perfect map to psychological individuation. The Tree of Life is where all religions and psychology can meet. There are other systems, such as the chakras, tetractys, and the alphabets, but they can all also be correlated to the Tree. It seems the dominant model to me.

It is obvious that the Tree of Life historically was innately used as an initiatory step ladder mystically, I was just intrigued when the 10 Latin grades for the Sphere positions popped up, as they reveal a bit about what the nature of the work in that sphere was believed to consist of. Jim guessed early 1700's.

Does anyone know of any good books that provide an overview of ancient initiatory systems and their stages, and perhaps compare their degrees? My guess is that most were 7-fold, based on the planets and/or chakras, but a book compiling them would be intriguing. (I would really like to find a 36-fold one.)

For instance this gives the mithraic ranks (men faint of heart be warned!):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_Mysteries
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Postby Steven Cranmer » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:47 am

Wizardiaoan wrote:my question was if anyone knew when those names and that degree structure originated.

These degree names can be traced back to the German Gold und Rosenkreuzer Order, formed initially in the early decades of the 1700s, but reconstituted in the 1760s or 1770s with the familiar degree names. (Though "Zelator" was called "Junior," and the Minor and Major Adept grades didn't seem to use the word Adept.)

The most probable source for the folks who formulated the SRIA and the Golden Dawn was probably an "expose" of the Gold und Rosenkreutzers called Der Rosenkreuzer in seiner Blösse: or The Rosicrucian Exposed, by "Magister Pianco." (I haven't yet seen a copy of this recent translation, but it looks excellent). Kenneth Mackenzie, in his (late 19th century) Royal Masonic Cyclopaedia, gave the degree information in tabular form and thus introduced them to many of the movers and shakers in the English occult revival. These tables have been scanned and presented on this site with other information about each grade in the Gold und Rosenkreutzers. Kenneth Mackenzie is one of the people suspected of having written the GD Cipher Manuscript.

The sephiroth from the Tree of Life are listed in one set of these tables, and the grades are in another. I'm not 100% sure, though, that a linkage was made between the two in the 1700s.

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Postby Wizardiaoan » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:27 am

Thanks Steve, very informative.
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Postby Steven Cranmer » Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:50 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:The P.I. is analogous to the Prince of Jerusalem degree in Scottish Rite Freemasonry. The Royal Arch is the IV°.

I don't think I've ever seen the following table on the web anywhere. It might be useful... and not too misleading, I hope...

I° OTO = 1st degree Blue Lodge
II° OTO = 2nd degree Blue Lodge
III° OTO = 3rd degree Blue Lodge
IV° OTO = 13th & 14th degrees AASR
P.I. OTO = 16th degree AASR
K.E.W. OTO = 17th degree AASR
V° OTO = 18th degree AASR
K.R.E. OTO = 24th degree AASR
VI° OTO = 30th degree AASR
G.I.C. OTO = 31st degree AASR
P.R.S. OTO = 32nd degree AASR
VII° OTO = 33rd degree AASR

AASR means "Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite." One can delve much deeper with the Rites of Memphis and Mizraim, but it's interesting to see parallels with rites that are actually worked in this day and age! :)

Of course, the use of the "equals sign" above is metaphorical and indicative of descent and inspiration, not a direct equivalence! :shock:

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Postby In Nomine Babalon » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:10 am

cheers Steve.
Ive added to the table:



I° OTO = 1st degree Blue Lodge
II° OTO = 2nd degree Blue Lodge
III° OTO = 3rd degree Blue Lodge
IV° OTO = 13th&14th degrees AASR= 4-7 Memphis=4-33 Misraim(Reduced Rite)
P.I. OTO = 15h & 16th degree AASR= 8-9 Memphis= 34-38, 45 Misraim
K.E.W. OTO = 17th degree AASR= 10 Memphis
V° OTO = 18th degree AASR= 11 Memphis= 44-46 Misraim
K.R.E. OTO = 24th degree AASR= 12-17 Memphis= 39, 47-64 Misraim
VI° OTO = 30th degree AASR= 18 Memphis= 65 Misraim
G.I.C. OTO = 31st degree AASR= 66Misraim
P.R.S. OTO = 32nd degree AASR= 19 Memphis=
VII° OTO = 33rd degree AASR= 20 Memphis= 77 Misraim

VIII° OTO
IX° OTO 33° (95°)Memphis= 90°Misraim
X° OTO 96° Memphis=
XI°OTO
XII° OTO 97°Memphis=
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Postby Steven Cranmer » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:18 am

In Nomine Babalon wrote:cheers Steve.
Ive added to the table:

Cool! I'll have to dig up my Kessenger paperbacks and re-acquaint myself with the M&M rites...

Was the OTO's XII° in place (or even mentioned) in Crowley's lifetime? I recall that some have asserted it to be a relatively recent addition.

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Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:16 am

Steven Cranmer wrote:Was the OTO's XII° in place (or even mentioned) in Crowley's lifetime? I recall that some have asserted it to be a relatively recent addition.

There was one sheet of paper known to me that mentioned it as the proper designation of the O.H.O. - not that I think that matters.

Alternately, it is sex magick by water sports.
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Postby In Nomine Babalon » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:16 am

ASFIK pretty recent.
Volume 3 Number 10 of he Equinox lists HBeta as X degree...so I assume after OTO International was formed they introduced the XII as the defacto OHO degree. Although i could be wrong.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:19 am

In Nomine Babalon wrote:ASFIK pretty recent.
Volume 3 Number 10 of he Equinox lists HBeta as X degree...so I assume after OTO International was formed they introduced the XII as the defacto OHO degree. Although i could be wrong.

He hadn't assumed the title of O.H.O. yet. At that point in history it was understood that he was Caliph and X°. Provisions were worked out for internationalization and the eventual ratification of an O.H.O. on a constitutional basis.
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Postby RedCairo » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:15 pm

93,

Speaking of comparative orders. Maybe someone can give me a pointer. From what I gather from this thread, the associations between degree numbers are (the same? different?) from OTO's.

Much of my experience comes in dreams and visions, not official doctrine, so I'm often really an idiot about stuff everyone else knows. I sometimes have 'magick dreams' as I call them. One example is when (over a dozen years ago) I was -- well here is an edited excerpt from my journal of the time (3/95):

I had a dream that seemed to last all night. It was about "2 in 8" and "8 in 2" and why they were the Same (and Not [as in Nuit]) and for some reason I was wearing a dark red robe and wandered in and out of rituals held by magician type people (mostly in dark red robes), all of whom I didn't know... the grafting of 8 onto 2 was incredibly powerful, like it was some cosmic lesson, and I had the specific sense that I had been initiated into both levels simultaneously, as if they were somehow reflections of each other. (This doesn't work though... those two degrees are not the ones associated together in the OTO.) The end result is sort of a feeling of... belonging? with the group involved that I haven't had before. As if I really did participate in many rituals on some level and bonded with tons of people whom I don't even know. But also a feeling of... now understanding (again not consciously, but on some level) the "framework" of all this, and some of the meanings behind the symbolism. The dream made me feel as if I have accepted something major, almost as if I have made some tremendous commitment that has an equal commitment/ relationship with me, and it's to something way bigger than me or what I currently know as "me;" not the Order, not the people, not the degrees (those are included, but as very small components) but to some larger, more overriding energy, like maybe the overall purpose behind the Order, behind everything. It's vast.


Given that I was introduced to the OTO in a dream in '94 (thank goodness I keep a journal or I wouldn't remember any of this stuff!), I've sometimes wondered if somewhere out there is another magical order I haven't yet encountered, that I am already enmeshed with and might actually benefit from meeting. Does anybody know of an order that has this different degree association/coloring? I'd be really delighted if I could actually find them. A lot of my stuff usually ends up eventually turning out to exist outside me, I just don't know it at the time, so I have hope. I've considered visiting all kinds of magical groups in quiet looking for them -- R+C, whatever -- but it's not like anyone introduces you to private ritual when you're a newb so that probably wouldn't help.

93 93/93,
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Postby sethur » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:47 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
How does Freemasonry & the O.T.O. fit into all of this? Did Freemasonry, like Rosicrucianism, develop out of the Templars?

Rosicrucianism may or may not have developed from the Templar tradition. Most hold that it did not, but there are some arguments that it did in some fashion.

(snip)

Picking up where conventional history allows, though...

The visible Rosicrucian movement and Freemasonry (and Odd Fellows and a number of other things) developed concurrently around 1600 E.V.


Sorry to disagree, but my own researches point in a different direction.

Oddfellowship is a splinter from masonry that was still within masonry c1750. At this time it was necessary to be a Master Mason in charge of a lodge to get 3rd degree ("passing the chair" was developed later) and a few (an "odd" number, meaning no fixed number) of fellowcraft masons met twice a year on the feasts of St John the B and E. Their initiation is directly stolen from masonry, or was in 1790.

The Rosicrucians were alchemists, developing a Protestant mysticism to match that of Catholicism, including the Catholicism of the Templars. It is highly unlikely that any mix of Templar and Rosicrucian traditions happened until the 18th century, through (perhaps) The Gold and Rosy Cross. The first definite group to adopt both were the Masons, but only in symbolic dgree rites in such things as Royal Arch. The extent to which eMasonic rites of this sort were anything but formalities is questionable. Ultimately, it's back to the Golden Dawn for a real synthesis.

As to the idea that there was a secret tradition within Templarism, jury still out but it would have been gnostic if anything.
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