Lineages lineages and more lineages

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Lineages lineages and more lineages

Postby FiliusBestia » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:51 am

93, I am curious why there are so many Lineages of A.'.A.'.? In a way I understand, but at the same time it's like damn. I am already a Probationer in one, but I've still been reading into them a little. I find myself grasping for words on just what it is I'm seeking.
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Postby kuniggety » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:01 pm

I think it basically just boiled down to disorganization after Crowley's death. Students of his and Karl Germer, who didn't really take control, kind of went on to do their own things with or without the blessings of the surviving Karl Germer.
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Postby Shadow Self » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:22 pm

I wonder how many linages of the A.A. there actually are. Does anyone have a nice clean list of them. I think I've only heard of two linages, but I thought there were more than that.
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Postby Modest » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:28 am

My meditation cleanly destroys any need for attachment to an organisation. Not that I don't value people who help me when I'm in need of information.
The Temple is in your body so you don't even need google to find the A.:A.:! :D
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Postby FiliusBestia » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:03 pm

93, I agree with you to an extent, and yet pride bears a blinding downfall, a bandwagon. I used to be one those people locked up all the time. A hardhead. In my time, I discovered three types:those who saw an organization as a weakness, those who joined it because of a weakness, and those who did what they did just because it felt right or it was who they are. I find these arise in several examples in life. I guess I'm saying be sure you do what you do for the right reasons. 939393
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Re: Lineages lineages and more lineages

Postby Sphynx » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:24 pm

FiliusBestia wrote:93, I am curious why there are so many Lineages of A.'.A.'.? In a way I understand, but at the same time it's like damn. I am already a Probationer in one, but I've still been reading into them a little. I find myself grasping for words on just what it is I'm seeking.

One might also ask why there are so many branches of "Christianity."
Once there was little or nothing. Then the Holy Roman Catholic Church arose and "spread the good word." Then Luther rebelled, and Lutheranism cropped up. Followed by Presbyterians, Baptists, Mormons, etc, ec.
You get the picture? It's all based on Jesus, but each doctrine has some fine point(s) that makes it "truer" than any other doctrine.
Now, if you want to connect with the "real" A.'.A.'., just send me $666 and I'll point you in the right direction. (Ha, ha - just kidding on that one!).

The "real" A.'.A.'. is the Order of no name that has existed from the beginning of time. Any outer order flying the A.'.A.'. banner may, or may not, be linked to that supra-abyssmal organization of Magisters.
How do you tell? As Crowley said, you link up, you sign the oath(s), and if you end up in the company of charlatans, so much the worse for you.
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Postby underabloodredsky » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:18 pm

This is so typical of magical fraternities; nobody will tell you a damn thing (as they smile smugly). It's always the same on every forum, "know them by their fruits" and such. Well how in the hell do you do that??? You can pick one and spend years getting to know a group only to find out that they were "bad fruits"; unless you got lucky the first try.

I get so sick of nobody standing up for their beliefs and ideals, putting them out there and saying, "I think this group or the group I belong to are better or right because of a. b. & c." etc. I mean, why is every body so afraid to criticise some body's ideas? You are not judging the person by that, only the argument.
Imagine if the physical sciences operated in that manner, "Sorry, we can't assert our belief about what is correct or criticise that school of thought on (substitute any scientific theorem here, like relativity, for example) because we might hurt some body's feelings. Also we will be on record, and if we make the wrong decision we will look really stupid."

So, just like there is a list or forum for universities, why doesn't everyone who is in a magical fraternity, Thelema, G.D. or whatever, just say this has been good or bad because of this or that and then list the reasons and arguments? You have anonymity anyway. So speak up and stop being so silly.
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Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:02 pm

People should decide what is right for them. After all, what's "good" for one person may not be for another.

People hold out on you either because they believe the above, or they don't know anything.
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Postby underabloodredsky » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:01 am

Sorry, but you missed my point entirely.

One can't decide what's good for themselves without data. Did you not understand my analogy to other sciences, or does that not apply here?
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Postby Modest » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:03 am

FiliusBestia, a good post. My question would be how can one join any fraternity if one does yoga and the sense that you don't need to join anyone comes naturaly? Is it something the prophets say that they're talking to the ones who are searching not the ones who have found? Underabloodredsky, you could also imagine that like science the fraternities open up their secret research to criticism.
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Postby Edward Mason » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:44 am

93,

Underabloodredsky complained:
One can't decide what's good for themselves without data. Did you not understand my analogy to other sciences, or does that not apply here?

Well, that is a reason this Forum is here - to provide a window on one of the lineages.

93 93/93,

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Postby Al-Shariyf » Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:07 am

There's no point in getting into a "magical fraternity pissing contest." Actions speak louder than words, and sometimes silence speaks louder than actions. Usually, those who talk a good game suck at the game. Watch the players, not the commentators.
"To advance—that means Work. Patient, exhausting, thankless, often bewildering Work. Dear sister, if you would but Work! Work blindly, foolishly, misguidedly, it doesn’t matter in the end: Work in itself has absolute virtue." -Magick Without Tears
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Postby underabloodredsky » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:23 pm

See my review of BOTA here:

http://heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?t=5153

This is my contribution. I challenge anyone else here to do the same.

Edward Mason,
Well, that is a reason this Forum is here - to provide a window on one of the lineages.


OK, but if nobody speaks up, then what?

Ra-Imhotep
There's no point in getting into a "magical fraternity pissing contest."


Who said any thing about a pissing contest? That is a very immature way of deciding the truth. There is another way brought to a high perfection is ancient Greece and the great universities of yester-year, and that is of argument and debate, confined to the issues at hand. As I keep repeating over and over, it is no different than the Newsweek review of America's top colleges, or one school of physics debating another school etc.

Actions speak louder than words, and sometimes silence speaks louder than actions. Usually, those who talk a good game suck at the game. Watch the players, not the commentators.


How do I do that? Where do I get the information, the data? Maybe if you told me your experiences, related to me the actions of others, then I would have some data!
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Postby Edward Mason » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:09 pm

93,

Underabloodredsky said:
OK, but if nobody speaks up, then what?

I can't imagine a comparative guide to orders of the kind you say you are seeking. It would have to be written by people who had hopped from order to order, or lineage to lineage: the very worst, shallowest sort of people to guide you.

We don't find an order by comparison shopping. We are led to the one or the ones that are right for us, and which deliver the life lessons we need. Don't make the mistake of thinking this is a process that should be controlled solely by your conscious ego.

The one single thing I knew I was going to avoid when I began looking for initiation was anything to do with that dreadful Crowley character. But it was in the Thelemic community, and Temple of Thelema particularly, that I found the spiritual power and depth of intelligent understanding I was after. Which isn't to say you need the same thing I did, but is to say that you have to let the Universe make the decision, not just yourself.

You remarked in another, concurrent thread that you couldn't see the point in sitting with a Tarot card for a few minutes every day, month after month. But it's precisely that kind of exercise that subverts our conscious decision-making processes, and begin the process of transformation and opening.

Ask the Universe, as sincerely as you can, to show you where to go. Then - this is the really scary bit - let it.

93 93/93,

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Postby FiliusBestia » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:14 pm

93, My intention in this post is in no way to get a pissing contest started. @Modest,No one said you had to join anything. Some however find the desire to do so. Not to mention, it's easy to judge yourself, but to have another judge you... @Blood,There's info out there, it is just a matter of persistent searching. It would be nice to have a list and some basic info on the various orders/lineages, I agree, BUT I wouldn't go past basic info. Even then you lose some the lesson in persistent seeking. Also, your Oath goes to the Order, not individuals. Should they prove false, move on and continue your search for truth.
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Postby underabloodredsky » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:53 pm

To Edward Mason & FiliusBestia, I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I just don't think it has to be an either/or scenario. We can have both, do both. We can ask the universe and not be consciously ego dominated, but we can also discuss and share our experiences. I was not looking for some one person to rate 10 fraternity's, just the ones you have experience with, and in detail, the good and bad.

A lot of people are getting stuck or slowed by a lack of real information, and I'm saying let's address that.

The problem with the current tight-lipped restriction on information of personal experience is that it ends up being like an arranged marriage. It can take years until you get to know the person you married, and just damn luck if it's not the right one for you. The other option, is get to know by direct experience if possible, but that usually isn't, at least until you have invested years into the relationship.
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Postby Edward Mason » Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:29 pm

UABRS, 93,

I think I do understand what you're looking for, and I stick by the last sentence of my previous post - let the Universe make your call.

One issue too often sidestepped is that joining an order is NOT a comfortable ride. I roll my eyes over people complaining they ran into 'politics' or 'personality issues' in an order, and so they quit. The bulk, if not all, of the difficulties I've run into personally were well within my own ability to control, had I chosen to be aware of this at the time. I don't mean I could have stopped other people's behavior, but my own reactions produced much of the downside.

In any real initiatory experience there are going to be a series of difficult moments, or situations, or what have you, and the really committed aspirants push on regardless, maintaining a sense of their aspiration, while containing their sense of hurt. The teachers are human, the other members are too, and an order, while being a Sanctuary, is not going to be a Sanctuary from life. It won't be an ashram. But it can be a very good school for living.

One other thing: I discovered after I joined an order that I was in an extended community, which included those from other groups. People often find their initial phase of membership opens doors they didn't even know existed beforehand. I've come to believe the system is meant to work like this, to deter people who won't take the plunge.

You're asking for some degree of certainty here, or definite information, and the only honest answer I can give you from my own experience, is: You have to jump in and find out for yourself.

93 93/93,

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Postby underabloodredsky » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:13 pm

Edward Mason wrote:UABRS, 93,

I think I do understand what you're looking for, and I stick by the last sentence of my previous post - let the Universe make your call.

One issue too often sidestepped is that joining an order is NOT a comfortable ride. I roll my eyes over people complaining they ran into 'politics' or 'personality issues' in an order, and so they quit. The bulk, if not all, of the difficulties I've run into personally were well within my own ability to control, had I chosen to be aware of this at the time. I don't mean I could have stopped other people's behavior, but my own reactions produced much of the downside.

In any real initiatory experience there are going to be a series of difficult moments, or situations, or what have you, and the really committed aspirants push on regardless, maintaining a sense of their aspiration, while containing their sense of hurt. The teachers are human, the other members are too, and an order, while being a Sanctuary, is not going to be a Sanctuary from life. It won't be an ashram. But it can be a very good school for living.

One other thing: I discovered after I joined an order that I was in an extended community, which included those from other groups. People often find their initial phase of membership opens doors they didn't even know existed beforehand. I've come to believe the system is meant to work like this, to deter people who won't take the plunge.

You're asking for some degree of certainty here, or definite information, and the only honest answer I can give you from my own experience, is: You have to jump in and find out for yourself.

93 93/93,

Edward


I agreed with you entirely, Edward Mason, up until that last sentence. Re-read my posts, I am only asking for detailed, critical analysis of one's own personal experience.
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Postby Edward Mason » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:32 pm

UABRS, 93,
Re-read my posts, I am only asking for detailed, critical analysis of one's own personal experience.

Which is one thing I wouldn't provide to anyone - certainly not in a public forum. It's not about a cookie-cutter process - it's about an intensely personal experience that encompasses the entire meaning and nature of an individual's life. Nobody but me could understand that, and I have a hard time verbalizing it, even for myself.

If you want the equivalent for yourself, then make the jump - and find out. It's about life, which you have to live one way or the other, so you may as well do it in company with a bunch of other crazy people.

93 93/93,

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Postby Edward Mason » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:43 pm

Alrah, 93,
*the plunge* lol
It's not neccessary and it's too much of a risk.

If you don't feel called to do it, then don't. What I don't get is the 'risk.' As I just remarked to Underabloodredsky, we have to live life one way or the other, so the 'risk' in initiation is illusory.
If you're afraid of egomaniacal leaders, or that the Forces of Darkness will claim you, I suggest (and doing this IS part of the curriculum in any decent order) that you take a long, calm, silent look at why the idea of those things threatens you.
Crackpot leaders can, over the long haul, be excellent teachers, because they see and exploit our weak points. I say this having spent a couple of intense years in a cult in my 20s.
And if you're asked at your initiation to swear allegiance to His Infernal Majesty, you can always clam up.

93 93/93,

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Postby Persephone » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:25 am

Some people including myself have written about the Motta lineage in previous posts. I can tell you that there, several changes and additions were made to Crowley's instructions. I also suggest looking at different lineages' websites to get a general idea of their attitudes. The personality of the head of the line does influence the teachings. Hope this helps.
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Postby Uni_Verse » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:52 am

Ivory Towers are for Adepts of the worst kind.
So... get wet and start swimming!
The water is bitter cold one moment and (****) warm the next, but you will get use to it. :D
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Postby FiliusBestia » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:11 pm

93, @Mr Mason, So you disagree with a compilation upon the various Thelemic sects, lineages, and organizations? While I agree that the search, and that leap, are "necessary", I fail to see no reason against a basic compilation of data.
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Postby Uni_Verse » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:10 pm

I am more in line with the "take the plunge" opinion.

Reading a persons critique only lets you know if you will get what you want from an order or what have you. The reality I see is one where it is not about what you want, it is about something entirely different: need (adequate enough).
There is only one verse,
sung in infinite ways.
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"Here!"
I come or came?
I sung!
To seeD the Way
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God sings,
WE experience:
THE UNIVERSE!
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Postby Edward Mason » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:37 pm

FiliusBestia, 93,
I fail to see no reason against a basic compilation of data.

My problem is, how do you do this? Having sampled one or two, I know I would loathe some of the Christian-based Hermetic orders, which I know work wonderfully well for friends of mine. Do I say their group-mind energy is sucky, when for my friends it's the only thing worth doing?

And how do we rank them? Do we get 10 volunteers to join four orders each, then average their findings? One objection there is, you can't be in two Golden Dawn-type orders at one time: it simply isn't workable, nor acceptable to the Orders themselves. If you find one that doesn't mind double adherence, that IS one I'd put on a no-fly list.

Or, take a large order like the O.T.O. Some Lodges would be top-notch places to learn, others could be run by low-ranking people who don't know much, or might have poor people skills. And personnel tend to change, so the Lodge that got a D-minus in April is back on track by October, while our prized 'ranking' remains the same.

Then again, part of the process is a weeding out. Groups that are too soft on newbies probably have low standards all the way through, but they would perhaps rate highly because nobody pushed the lazy members out.

UnderaBloodRed Sky wanted me to supply "detailed, critical analysis of one's own personal experience." But the problem there is, what I have underdone, and undergo, is based on my own path - it would have little relationship, perhaps none, to anyone else's criteria. "Thus ye have star & star, system & system; let not one know well the other!" Things that were major life-battles for me would be irrelevant to other people, while I've seen things I skated through hold people back for years.

My final objection is this: with this list or guide-book, I think some people want a lazy or a cowardly way out. They want to know what's coming up, what unlovely ordeals might occur, and so on. The initiation process takes you through your own trip. You might need a "bad" experience to make you look at certain things you could dodge with a really charismatic teacher whose energy might too easily blind you to your own true failings and strengths.

Nobody can know what is going to happen when they commit to joining an Order. You have to let something more than your conscious, rational self make the call, or you will tend to maintain conscious rational control for too long. That's not to diss the Malkuthian gift of discrimination, which is still necessary, but it is only one tool among several.

93 93/93,

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