A∴A∴ language and physical presence

[Slo]

93,

I know this question must be probably asked before, but as I don´t find the proper thread I´ve decided to open this, also to make it more visible to people who could be in my same situation.

Firstly I suppose that not having english as my first language, it must be no impediment to find some tutor with my same language (spanish, it´s not that much rare). Also, that being the tutor-student relationship basically based on the Diary, I think that they don´t necessarily need to live even in the same country. At the same time for that same reason there´s the possibility that some member lives in my same country though there´s no physical school implanted. But in any case, I´m well aware that for certain ceremonies like that of the Neophyte, it requires a physical presence of the tutor, etc. For that purpose I could arrange things with time, etc. But before that (the Student phase, all the Probationer year...) it´s necessary to meet physically in any occasion for any purpose?

It will help a lot to know this kind of things for the people in my same situation, I must be wrong but I think I didn´t find anything along those lines in the many A∴A∴ info I´ve checked. Thanks.

[Takamba]

You will need to meet with your guru (teacher) from time to time; especially for the ceremonies and testing. The A.'.A.'. is a one-on-one instruction method, so there is no actual "school" of the A.'.A.'. (COT and TOT, though somewhat related to the A.'.A.'. are not schools of the A.'.A.'.).

I'd imagine there are plenty of Spanish and even Portuguese speaking members. Contact the Chancellor of the A.'.A.'. lineage you feel you want to be part of and have them locate someone for you.

[Slo]

You will need to meet with your guru (teacher) from time to time; especially for the ceremonies and testing.

The testings include the Student examination, and the repeat of the Liber LXV chapter in the Probationer final? And as for "the other times" apart from ceremonies or testings, what kind of things could take to a necessary physical meeting, as you imply? I´m being very specific because of the considerable efforts and difficulty that travel usually involves (maybe even for long distances): it´s not the same a ceremony or testing that probably other kind of things (I don´t know of what nature), as I see it.

[Takamba]

I assume you have Liber ABA and in it you will find the syllabus, oaths, and tasks of the grades. In there are described all the manner of tests and examinations as you progress through the grades. You'll need to be in presence for each of those. Look for instance where it is written "and the neophyte shall be examined"and the practicus shall be examined" or "and the zealot shall be examined" and so forth. These are not written examinations.

If you own Liber ABA, about the requirements of every grade of the A.'.A.'. you would have all in hand. If you don't own Liber ABA, I recommend a copy A.S.A.P.

[Slo]

Well yes I have Liber 185, as you probably noted I´m aware of these things. Also I know for a fact that some of the so called "examinations" in this document are really based on the Diary, so they clearly doesn´t require physical presence. But anyway, the question is for the specific treatment in this kind of cases, involving long distances travelling. Things like ceremonies doesn´t require discussion, but It´s not clear that things like some of the examinations could not be arranged via videoconference or something (I´m not saying all of them, just those that can be adapted to such thing?). And most importantly, that I think that most people in my same situation assume for a fact that it´s impossible to join without travelling long distances constantly etc etc, due to the indetermination and lack of information in this matters, when in fact the tutor-student relationship can be flexible to adapt to physical distances, even more with today technology. You probably think that one candidate must be ready to take that kind of big spiritual compromise doesn´t matter how, etc etc (travelling long distances constantly for the sake of one single examination, etc), but I´m talking here about a more plain side of this, of the simple facts.

[Slo]

Please if someone could clarify if some sort of adjustment has been made in any occasion for such cases involving long distances (things like avoid purely formal encounters, examinations by videoconference, etc) it would be great.

Studied Liber 185 under this question I´ve found little thing that could carry absolutely necessary physical presence, IMO. Such things described there as the candidate "being received" by the tutor can pass as simple formalities, in the same way that of the "paying a Guinea" was something sort of symbolic that has been abolished (as I have understood). Same with the "reception" of the robe.

Also, Crowley makes it clear referring to these kind of things (in One Star in Sight) as having purely practical reasons and being flexibles to adaptation, so it´s not clear that these ones in particular could not be adapted when the circumstances requires it.

As for the examinations by videoconference, they are not a strange thing in the academic world today. Special measures for avoiding fraud could be easily made.

In the two first grades I´ve found nothing that could require necessary physical presence, even in examinations (The examination in Journeying on the Spirit Vision could go by videoconference without problem).

The Yoga examinations of the Zelator could more reasonably require direct presence because of some particularities (asana particularities and so on), though it´s not sure that they probably could not be made also by videoconference.

I don´t checked beyond Zelator because these three grades are already no small business.

That would leave the obligatory physical presence for the ceremonies of the Neophyte and Zelator initiations, and probably Zelator examinations in yoga though it´s not sure.

Just some idle thougths about this question, please don´t even take it as "suggestions", even less as a sort of complain. I don´t even know if some kind of similar arrangement is made or has been made for such kind of cases.

[Jim Eshelman]

I can't say what anyone else is doing anywhere else in the world; but, for all the reasons you mention and more, we won't admit anyone that isn't physically proximate to a teacher (or can reasonably travel as needed) because we can't do them any real good. The relationship between superior/inferior requires easy, ongoing connection over the years.

We regard anyone who does otherwise as short-hanging you. They may see it differently.

[Slo]

I see, thanks for clarification! For my part, I could definitely try. Please just one more thing if it´s possible (I hope I´m not being indiscrete or something): let´s put that one initiate that has reached at least Neophyte or higher, comes to live under this circumstances, in a country without any Temple of the Order. This person could then initiate other people, that is, arrange things for settle a Temple for the Ceremonies, a place for examinations, etc? Or they (tutor and student) must travel to one of the established Temples in other countries?

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, of course a Neophyte living in a particular area may receive Probationers (under the direction of his or her Superiors, as usual).

[Slo]

Great, thanks again Jim. I thought that maybe the Ceremonies and the like were only prescripted to permanent Temples.

I´ll add for the record that in the thread above, this same question of the Temples and locations for the initiations has been discussed almost at the same time, with more info: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14550&p=98879#p98879

[Slo]

I´ll add two more threads related to this one:

This one, in which there´s a wide discussion about the physical distance thing: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11910

And this other with several testimonies which could be useful one way or another: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8804